Real Devs vs. Sub Par Devs vs. Fake Devs

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Real Devs vs. Sub Par Devs vs. Fake Devs

« posted: Oct 09, 2016, 04:43 PM »
Well I'm bored and figured I would post a general discussion. on the topic above.

So to start, I am Mokey, I've been playing arma since ARMA II, As far as development on Arma goes for me, I've only really developed a few things. Toxic Gas Grenades and If you've played on my server, I've demolished the Supporter Level script (CreamPie helped, A LOT). But I would like to say I'm not a Developer, but I am some1 who beats his face frantically off the keyboard to make things work and consistently post on forums. AKA, from AgentRev, I'm a forum Lurker. But I wanted to point a few things out, if course this is all just speculation and opinion.

So Lets Get Started,
(This is just for Arma, but could be carried out into other aspects)

Real Developers
People Like Agent Rev, LoudNL, Tonic, and many others( I can't name you all) Are your real devs, these are the guys that can just open up NotePad++ and just go to town. Blank sheets get slammed with hundreds of lines of code over a few hours. These are the people you want to support. From Donating, Posting on their Forums, Putting their gametype name on your mission name, to simply talking about them. Real Developers are people that you know can fix anything that you break.

Here's the issues with real developers, THEY GET ABUSED! People just start PMing, Posting their names, and asking them hundreds of questions... They turn into, what seem like @$$holes. But honestly. they're just sick and tired of saying the same thing over and over. Running into the same questions, over and over. Wishing people would just use the search bar on their forums.

So please, If you feel some1 is a real developer. Cut them some slack, they are just trying to get the base mission/addon working to their liking. It's not their job to fix your mess ups. But it's really nice when they do, because you know it's going to work.

 Sub Par Devs
I feel I fall into this category. I believe Cael hit it on the head one day. In one of his posts he said something along the lines of, "I just Frankenstein code together to get it to work."  While this seems asinine, it's how a lot of us work. We can't just type out code, but we've been doing it for quite some time to where we can read the code like a horrid Japanese novel translated to English via Google Translate. We are the devs that ask and help other devs (at least in this community)

A lot of Sub Par Devs do some good work. When I made my Toxic Gas Grenade Script and pushed it to Loud, I did not think he would take it... but he did and now a lot of servers use it. We're the most inventive developers, because we know just enough code to get us in trouble. Spending hours upon hours beating our faces of our keyboards for very little reward.

 Fake Devs
Everyone, or almost everyone was in this spot at one point. If you're new to arma and want to run a server... yeah, it sucks.

I like to call the real "forum lurkers" Fake Devs. Almost like BitTorrents, just straight leechers. Won't ever edit a line of code unless it's changing a name to their server. Only post for suggestions, requests, and Copy Paste EVERYTHING! Never knowing what { [ ( ) ] } really means. Really don't know the pain of a missing ; or , !

Don't stay in this category, If you feel you are in this category, it's fine. We were all here at some point. Just remember, give back to the community at some point. Be it you telling some1 they simply missed a ; or making your own custom script.

There are other "Fake Developers" out there I believe. I don't see them a lot... but I did have one recently. You know, the ,"I can do everything" developer, who doesn't know anything and can't do anything. But wants the "joy" of the title developer.

Welp, that's almost it

I run a 1,500 man multi-gaming community. I have learned this with development. There's nothing that gets my rocks off better than people on my server saying, "that's ****ing AWESOME!" when I upload a new mission file. That's why I do it.

I have also learned, if you are happy coding with 100+ people telling you what you should code... you are Satan's spawn.

Anyways, that's my theory on developers... please, post your thoughts. This thread isn't meant to make anyone upset, but just to make the upset people aware.  ;D

BTW, for the new guys in A3Wasteland forums... This is probably one of the best development communities I have ever seen. So many people willing to help. It's awesome. Rev, you've done some nice work sir.
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Re: Real Devs vs. Sub Par Devs vs. Fake Devs

« Reply #1 posted: Oct 10, 2016, 01:23 AM »
Quote
There's nothing that gets my rocks off better than people on my server saying, "that's ****ing AWESOME!" when I upload a new mission file. That's why I do it.

but ..

Quote
Spending hours upon hours beating our faces of our keyboards for very little reward.

 ::)

Imo, the best developers are those, who create new stuff NOT to impress the community nor to become kinda Script-God but .. to spread their passion with scripting and see their codes become alive.

It's the same way with old fashioned painters like Pablo Ruiz y Picasso. If he would have painted with thoughts of later admiration .. he would have created just .. crap.

my 50 ct before I follow bed's calling ..
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Re: Real Devs vs. Sub Par Devs vs. Fake Devs

« Reply #2 posted: Oct 10, 2016, 12:27 PM »
I'd have to agree with you 100%. Passion of developing is something is something that is massively needed. If you don't have the passion, you might as well stop while you can.
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Re: Real Devs vs. Sub Par Devs vs. Fake Devs

« Reply #3 posted: Oct 10, 2016, 08:29 PM »
Hmm I guess I fall into fake dev, I cant write script and I use to rely on Loud to add stuff, even though with the lack of knowledge I had/have I tried to make our server different from Louds even if it was just a few different territories and moving a couple of stores round , since Tanoa I started with vanilla and I am learning to add all of Louds and others extras myself I still have to get help big thanks to all Loud,creampie,matt,griffin to name a few and every1 else that has helped, but a massive +1

BTW, for the new guys in A3Wasteland forums... This is probably one of the best development communities I have ever seen. So many people willing to help. It's awesome. Rev, you've done some nice work sir.

if it wasn't for this community I would have quit a long time ago

Re: Real Devs vs. Sub Par Devs vs. Fake Devs

« Reply #4 posted: Oct 10, 2016, 09:29 PM »
Eld, I disagree 'bout "fake dev".  ;)
Allow me to quote one of your last messages ..

Quote
Hi m8, yes I think I have everything added testing for the 20th time now lol this is my 3rd attempt at trying to add this mission but slowly getting there

U make efforts and try & try & try .. and don't call yourself "big maker". I like that way.

I don't really like these only 3 categories. They are not precise enough and there are existing crossovers, too. And .. in some way these categories a) discredit few people and b) plunge the so called "new ones".

If I HAD to put u in one categorie, it would be named: selfmadetrialanderrormakersometimesaskingmostlyreadingandjusthappytogetsomethingbecomealive
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Re: Real Devs vs. Sub Par Devs vs. Fake Devs

« Reply #5 posted: Oct 11, 2016, 12:06 AM »
eldrich, what you're describing would be a sub par dev, you're frankensteining code and learning. You're not just copy pasting everything and saying it's yours.

Note:
I too follow loud for a lot. CreamPie is my hero :P.

As i said, it's nto meant to make any1 upset, but only to make the upset people aware. You know, constructive criticism. There could be many more categories. But these three categories cover like a blanket. If you saw, such as the "Fake Dev" portion, we all have to start somewhere. But just remember when you're a copy paste ninja, give credit where it's due and continue to learn. Don't just copy paste all the time. Take the time to try and learn. It comes with time.
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Re: Real Devs vs. Sub Par Devs vs. Fake Devs

« Reply #6 posted: Oct 11, 2016, 09:06 PM »
lol thanks Griffin

Hi m8, yes I think I have everything added testing for the 20th time now lol this is my 3rd attempt at trying to add this mission but slowly getting there


hmm yah Hackers mission works now :) thank fek
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Re: Real Devs vs. Sub Par Devs vs. Fake Devs

« Reply #7 posted: Oct 12, 2016, 12:32 AM »
I really don't feel any need to put a stamp on ppl because of their skills and knowledge.

Kind regards,

Frankenstein
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Re: Real Devs vs. Sub Par Devs vs. Fake Devs

« Reply #8 posted: Oct 12, 2016, 04:47 AM »
I really don't feel any need to put a stamp on ppl because of their skills and knowledge.

Agreed, everyone has their own skill-set, especially when it comes to 'development' within ArmA 3 and A3Wasteland.

What I have found over the years is that people do NOT like their skill-set judged upon, so I tend not to judge.

For example, I've had many people (experienced dev's?) tell me "that can't be done, we've tried" at some point or another... which I think to myself "I doubt you've really tried" and then I set off on learning the what and how, then script/code and test it, and prove it CAN be done, but only to get abuse in return (no one likes to be proved wrong I guess).

I have a scripting/coding background, so the move to ArmA 3 code was not as steep as someone else attempting it. I learned and learned and learned, and now can write my own scripts, routines, etc from scratch and know that they will work with very little tweaking. My skill-set for ArmA 3 code 6 months ago was nowhere near as good as current... but that's because I choose to learn, not rely on other peoples code or 'Frankenstein' code together to get things to work (a clunky and messy way to do it).

All-in-all, everyone has their own skill-set... and I applaud the ones that want to learn further and code things themselves, not just request for it to be coded for them.

I WILL help where possible, but I WILL NOT code things for you should you request (within reason I may show/explain how something is achieved, but for the most part, I would suggest an own attempt at it first... if still stuck, I may/will help).

Anyway, devs will be devs, and the skill-sets will be different, encourage and applaud them I say... we need more devs working together to accomplish tasks and better code for the better of the game and mission(s) we all enjoy playing (ArmA 3 A3Wasteland is my go-to game and mission/mode... and has been for the last year at least).

PEWPEWPEW!

-soul.
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Re: Real Devs vs. Sub Par Devs vs. Fake Devs

« Reply #9 posted: Oct 12, 2016, 05:00 AM »
Quote
My skill-set for ArmA 3 code 6 months ago was nowhere near as good as current... but that's because I choose to learn, not rely on other peoples code or 'Frankenstein' code together to get things to work (a clunky and messy way to do it).

'Frankenstein' code is how a lot of people learn and then they slowly start processing code. I'm nowhere near the developer I would like to be. But you get a lot of reference points when you 'Frankenstein' code with hardly any knowledge. 

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Re: Real Devs vs. Sub Par Devs vs. Fake Devs

« Reply #10 posted: Oct 12, 2016, 05:28 AM »
'Frankenstein' code is how a lot of people learn and then they slowly start processing code. I'm nowhere near the developer I would like to be. But you get a lot of reference points when you 'Frankenstein' code with hardly any knowledge.

Everyone learns their own way... and if that's using 'Frankenstein' code, by all means do it. I've learned a lot from other peoples code, by reading their code, checking the code structure, learning what does what (debug/reverse engineering) etc. I've also come across some horrible code too, and learned on how NOT to do something. ;P

The BIS/ArmA 3 Wiki I use ALL the time, as well as checking out code from within missions (and/or pbo's), or armaholic, blog sites, reddit, etc... it's all very useful.

I will continue to create/write custom scripts (for A3Wasteland) if/when the need arise, or I want to see something custom or random to keep things interesting (instead of encountering the same thing(s) over and over and over whilst in-game). :)

-soul
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Re: Real Devs vs. Sub Par Devs vs. Fake Devs

« Reply #11 posted: Oct 12, 2016, 06:00 AM »
Quote
I want to see something custom or random to keep things interesting (instead of encountering the same thing(s) over and over and over whilst in-game). :)

So far you've done nothing but impress (me at least)... not that I really matter lol. I'll be awaiting your customization. everyone loves them so far.
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Re: Real Devs vs. Sub Par Devs vs. Fake Devs

« Reply #12 posted: Oct 12, 2016, 06:59 AM »
So far you've done nothing but impress (me at least)... not that I really matter lol. I'll be awaiting your customization. everyone loves them so far.

Thanks. :)

-soul.

Re: Real Devs vs. Sub Par Devs vs. Fake Devs

« Reply #13 posted: Oct 12, 2016, 08:06 PM »
Sub Par Devs

Wow, this summed me up so perfectly. I am just starting to dabble in some of the bigger scripts now but for the most part it has been editing the current ones with my own logic. not much more. also the banging the head on the keyboard is really accurate. It took me 4 hours to get an external database working because i misspelled the name and took me that long to go check for that.

Re: Real Devs vs. Sub Par Devs vs. Fake Devs

« Reply #14 posted: Oct 13, 2016, 03:01 AM »
I'd like to think I am somewhere between the bottom tier and sub par. I rely on Agent Rev for the some of the ACE3 stuff especially where it blends with the medical side. I have asked thousands of questions to the ire of many and most of the time bash my head into the wall next to me when something fails to work. But, in the end, I had a mostly solid working project. I have in the past offered to pay people to write code for me but no one actually took me up on it. I am a dreamer I guess. I have an idea, a passion if you will for something, I look to see if anyone has done it, if they have I play on their server. If not, I try to implement it. I have a basic background in programming and mostly do shell scripting. So, I can grok certain aspects of the Arma code but a lot is lost in translation.

As it is, I am getting back into ACE3 Wasteland and attempting to upgrade to Tanoa and the latest version of ACE3 now that it is officially on Steam. I suspect it will be a long road.